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Boff
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Joined: 08 Dec 2012
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Post Battery Guide  Reply with quote
WIP Notes:

S1: Rewire (everything else turns on this)

S2: 14500 IMRs

S3: NiMH packs

S4: LiPo care and maintenance

S5: LiFe care and maintenance

S5: Chargers

S6: Battery and motor combination list
> Need to discuss if this has a place here or not - probably just have Rhino 12V (3S LiPo, whatever NiMH), 3240s 7ish V (2S LiPo, whatever NiMH), Xtremes 7ish V (2S LiPo, whatever NiMH)

BELOW IS LEGACY CONTENT - UPDATES INBOUND

This is a community led guide for those of us seeking to upgrade their battery capability. What follows is a tiered guide, it is recommended people you start at the beginning if you're new to this. These are just recommendations, there will be different optimum configurations for different blasters.

It is a work in progress, I'll take input from the community and edit it as we go. I can stick in photos for people if you need them

Level 1: High Performance NiMH
The first step you should take if you've not go any idea of where else to go. A decent start is these chaps from Amazon. They're very capable at delivering current to motors - I use them in my Stryfe RM2 build and it just about works (apart from the RM2 thing). They're not ideal but they're a fantastic start. They can be charged using a standard Alkaline battery charger.

In the case of Stampedes or Rapidstrikes, enclosures can be bought to adapt them from AA to C or AA to D depending on your build.

Level 2: IMRs
These are the recommended second stage for those looking for a little extra voltage. If you're thinking of TrustFires then use these instead. Why?
1: Lower internal resistance therefore lower voltage sag
2: Higher discharge capacity

14500 button top IMRs are recommended, sources are below:
Elfest IMR from Vape Escape
Elfest IMR from eBay

These are the same size as AA batteries so you'll need the same enclosures as Step 1.

IMRs do require a specific charger, they're quite readily compatible with the ones you might use for TrustFires. I'd strongly recommend either the TrustFire TR-003 and nothing else. Make sure you buy from a British seller so you're less likely to get a knock off and then they're in kicking distance if stuff goes south.

Level 3: Rewire
At this stage the chances are you've maxed out what the stock wiring and thermistors can handle. If you're looking to rewire then go and see this excellent guide from Torukmakto4. Rewiring will help supply more current to the motors by removing parasitic resistance.

Level 4: Packs
By this point, you're probably just as qualified as me but I recommend you look at these packs for Stryfes (Just one) and Rapidstrikes (2 in series for a true monster). Stampedes and other AEGs are going to need a little more capacity and I'll start looking into those in the next few days. I'll probably expand into a specific discussion of individual chemistries.

Terminology:
[Current, discharge and all the rest]

Chemistries:
Batteries come in all sorts of flavours these days and each chemistry has its perks. bitofall and I have detailed the pros and cons of each variant below. If you've got a Rapidstrike and you're just starting out, I recommend a 7.2V NiMH pack and a TRX connector on stock motors. Other builds will require different packs and you'll come to find your own preferences.

NiMH/Nickel Metal Hydride:
This is the age old chemistry that has been used in rechargeable batteries pretty much since the beginning, thanks to the benefits we'll come to later their use is actually becoming fairly limited. Voltage per cell is 1.2V.



Pros: A simple chemistry that is very stable, short of damaging the cells there is very little risk involved. Building your own packs isn't too difficult if you're competent at soldering and the low voltage per cell makes it easier to get exactly what you want.

Cons: Heavier than either LiPo or LiFe, with a higher internal resistance giving a slower response time and the "memory effect" which means you will lower the life span of your packs if you don't discharge and charge fully each time. The packs just can't match the capabilities of the other chemistries at smaller sizes either, largely due to the low voltage per cell and lower efficiency. Just as pricey, if not moreso, as the other two.

LiPo/Lithium Polymer/LiPoly:
The technology that in terms of portable goods like phones and laptops has been in use for some time and is now being replaced and in terms of RC has been the dominate battery choice for a few years now. Early examples were extremely volatile and you had to really know what you were doing or risk explosions or serious fires but current technology is far far safer though there is still a risk. Each cell is 3.8 volts.



Pros: Noticeably lighter than equivalent specification NiMH packs and a little lighter than LiFe, largely due to the high voltage per cell and low internal resistance. There are a wide range to choose from in a number of high capacity or voltage in formats that will fit most blasters. They are surprisingly cheap in blaster sizes and they don't suffer from the memory effect, so long as they never fall below 3 volts per cell they'll be fine. While pack to pack discharge capacities vary, LiPo chemistry is consistently the best performer for discharge capacity.

Cons: A stated in the synopsis, this is a volatile chemistry. If a pack is pierced or incorrectly charged, it will result in a self oxidising fire. This fire is toxic, very, very hot and can only be extinguished using a dry powder extinguisher or the pack being fully immersed in a bucket of very salty water. The best way to fight a LiPo fire is to let it burn itself out then attack the secondary fire. This should not be an issue with due care but should always be kept in mind, especially as most small packs are soft cased. Wrap your packs in bubble wrap when using them in your blaster - especially if you're outside.

The higher discharge current, and therefore delivered Amps, means that a short is even more serious than with the other two chemistries detailed here. LiPo batteries require a specific charger though these are common and fairly affordable these days. Single cell packs are too low voltage for a blaster but 2 cells will be an over volt even if "only" by 1.4 volts. A pack can never be allowed to drop below 3 volts per cell, you must run a voltage meter or low voltage alarm.

LiFe/LiFePo4/LFP/Lithium Ferrous Polymer:
A relatively new chemistry that tries to provide the best of both worlds from the other two. Each cell  runs at 3.3 volts.



Pros: Almost as stable as NiMH, these packs are pretty much as safe as it gets when messing with the sort of current we do. No "memory effect" and no minimum voltage, pretty low hassle to keep charged and have fun. A two cell pack runs at 6.6 volts, making them pretty much perfect for stock blasters or motors that dislike overvolting. Lighter than NiMH and close to LiPo.

Cons: Potentially lower voltage per cell though that's a personal preference thing, almost always a lower discharge rate than LiPo, offering less amps at similar voltages when comparing average packs and they require a more specific charger that is less common than LiPo though not really enough to worry about.

Pack Connectors:
Connecting your packs to your circuit is a critical component of the circuit. If you do everything else wonderfully and then leave a shoddy connector in then it's all for nothing because you'll get throttling and a drop in performance. Avoid EH and Tamiya connectors, they're only good for low current.

TRX/Traxxas Connector:

For total newbies, I'd recommend TRX connectors because they're big and chunky and next to impossible to short circuit. They're a little large, however and can cause some problems in tight spaces (the RS battery tray being one of them).

Deans Connector:
The other option is a Deans connector.

Source: Wikimedia Commons
As you can see, these are nice and solid but a little smaller than the TRX connectors and go some way to avoiding spacing problems.

XT-60:

Personally, I've never used these but Hobby King uses them a lot and they're rated for a goodly amount of current.

Occassionally, you'll need to solder new connectors to your battery pack. This is not to be done lightly so I'd recommend plug and play compatibilty if you can, otherwise there are number of videos on Youtube that will talk you through it.

Chargers:
Packs normally require a special charger - I'd honestly recommend dropping £20 on one of these Li Pro chargers - they'll charge anything and I mean anything. Throw one of these 60W laptop chargers at it and you're ready to go. With some time with the instruction manual you'll be able to charge your batteries.

Credit where credit's due:
OldNoob for his work on IMRs
SSGT for work on IMRs and general advice
bitofall for his Nerfing of my LiPo hate/fear (and the awesome work he's contributed to that section).

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Last edited by Boff on Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:20 am; edited 3 times in total
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bitofall
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Post Reply with quote
My stab at a contribution on the three major chemistries for battery packs.

NiMh:
This is the age old chemistry that has been used in rechargeable batteries pretty much since the beginning, thanks to the benefits we'll come to later their use is actually becoming fairly limited. Voltage per cell is 1.2.

Pros: A simple chemistry that is very stable, short of damaging the cells there is very little risk involved. Building your own packs isn't too difficult if you're competent at soldering and the low voltage per cell makes it easier to get exactly what you want.

Cons: Heavier than either LiPo or LiFe, with a higher internal resistance giving a slower response time and the "memory effect" which means you will lower the life span of your packs if you don't discharge and charge fully each time. The packs just can't match the capabilities of the other chemistries at smaller sizes either, largely due to the low voltage per cell and lower efficiency. Just as pricey, if not moreso, as the other two.


LiPo:
The technology that in terms of portable goods like phones and laptops has been in use for some time and is now being replaced and in terms of RC has been the dominate battery choice for a few years now. Early examples were extremely volatile and you had to really know what you were doing or risk explosions or serious fires but current technology is far far safer though there is still a risk. Each cell is 3.8 volts.

Pros: Noticeably lighter than equivalently specced NiMh packs and a little lighter than LiFe, largely due to the high voltage per cell and low internal resistance. able to choose either high capacity or voltage in formats that will fit most blasters, surprisingly cheap in blaster sizes and they don't suffer from the memory effect, so long as they never fall below 3 volts per cell they'll be fine. Can put out more amps on average than either of the other chemistries though obviously this varies with from pack to pack.

Cons: A stated in the synopsis, this is a volatile chemistry. If a pack is pierced or, potentially if it's charged wrong, it will result in a self oxidising fire, this is a fire you pretty much can not put out at all and it gives off toxic fumes. This should not be an issue with due care but should always be kept in mind, especially as most small packs are soft cased. The higher amp capability means that a short is even more serious than with the other two. Requires a specific charger though these are common and fairly affordable these days. Single cell packs are too low voltage for a blaster, but 2 cells will be an over volt even if "only" by 1.4 volts. As a pack can never be allowed to drop below 3 volts per cell, you must run a voltage meter or low voltage alarm.


LiFe:
A relatively new chemistry that tries to provide the best of both worlds from the other two. Each cell  runs at 3.3 volts.

Pros: Almost as stable as NiMh, these packs are pretty much as safe as it gets when messing with the sort of current we do. No "memory effect" and no minimum voltage, pretty low hassle to keep charged and have fun. A two cell pack runs at 6.6 volts, making them pretty much perfect for stock blasters or motors that dislike overvolting. Lighter than NiMh and close to LiPo.

Cons: Potentially lower voltage per cell though that's a personal preference thing, almost always a lower discharge rate than LiPo, offering less amps at similar voltages when comparing average packs and they require a more specific charger that is less common than LiPo though not really enough to worry about.


I personally run LiPo as it's what I'm used to and I like the amperage head room but LiFe is a perfectly good alternative, I personally wouldn't bother with anything other than these two unless you are very inexperienced or particularly worried about the risks, both should be fine if you use common sense.



Edit about Boffs connector comments: I reiterate what he says, a short with any of these packs but especially with high C rated LiPo pumps out some serious amps, so take all precautions when changing the connector. For an example, my racing packs I use in my RS are capable of ~100 amps constant draw and 150 burst, this will melt metal.
Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:29 pm View user's profile Send private message
Boff
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Post Reply with quote
Thanks bitofall, my PC derped and refused to switch back until this morning for some reason this morning. ¬¬ I've included your input in the main guide, with some slight edits for grammar and the like. Smile

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OldNoob
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Post Reply with quote
Great write up Boff. Just the sort of thing needed to up the ante on quality, combined with he Inductors/Current smoothing thread we have the beginnings of an " Ultimate Electric Blaster " guide!
Boff, in the standard battery section might I add the following,

Non Rechargeable Chemistries-
Zinc Carbon- the original consumer battery technology, cheap but low in power, often sold as the cheapest batteries. These should be avoided at all costs, as they provide awful performance and battery life.

Alkaline- higher power than zinc carbon, rated 1.5 v per cell.
Pros:These are the most common batteries in the home and are cheap and easy to find. Avoid Duracell as they DON'T perform any better than own brand and cost up to twice as much. Ones from Ikea, 10 for £1 are best for value vs power.
Cons:Start at 1.5v but as soon as you turn your device on this drops to 1.2v per cell. Low capacity with significant voltage sag in use.

Lithium: Often sold for high drain applications, not to be confused with LiPo.
Pros: delivers 1.5v pretty much the life of the cell with minimal sag and good battery life compared to alkalines. Can be found anywhere. If you consider a stryfe, 4 alkalines gives you 4.8v, with lithium you will get 6v, a small boost. Chrono data on this to follow.
Cons: expensive, over £1 per cell in AA. Not rechargeable and a limited range of cells is available.

A complete test of all consumer batteries, with a league table and graphs is viewable here:
http://www.batteryshowdown.com/



Might it not be time for a separate electric mods sub forum?

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Big_Poppa_Nerf wrote:

Boff whats the damage? I have spent over 3 times my Nerf budget this month already. Part of me is trying to be a responsible parent/husband/house owner. The other half is just says 'Ahhhh, Screw it!'.


Last edited by OldNoob on Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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Truefiction
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Post Reply with quote
All very good information and very useful. Can we have this as a sticky please.

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Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:35 am View user's profile Send private message
Boff
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I think we should get an organic modifications directory sticky going with links to the other topics to avoid lots of stickies at the top. We could consolidate everything including the legal advice re paint jobs. Smile

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Hammy
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Good intro on batteries, should be pinned.

You should mention that when rewiring, use heat shrink (and not e-tape) to insulate all joins to avoid a possibility of an internal short circuit.

And when handling the lithium technologies, ffs, do not short it out.
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UKNerfWar
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Boff wrote:
I think we should get an organic modifications directory sticky going with links to the other topics to avoid lots of stickies at the top...


If someone wants to do this I will sticky it.

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[quote="OldNoob:38837"]Remember if a mod guide has no performance test figures to back it up, look for a better one![/quote]
Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:15 pm View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boff
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Post Reply with quote
UKNerfWar wrote:
Boff wrote:
I think we should get an organic modifications directory sticky going with links to the other topics to avoid lots of stickies at the top...


If someone wants to do this I will sticky it.


Can someone else do this? I've got enough turf to manage right now. Very Happy

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CarrierII
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Alternative suggestion - make a subforum of such guides?

Anyway, I must correct the line about CO2 fire extinguishers for LiPo fires.

NO.

NO NO NO NO.

Dry powder. Dry powder (or sand, same difference) ONLY.

If a LiPo fire does happen, often best to let it burn itself out, then attack the secondary fire.

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Franticblue
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Post Reply with quote
CarrierII wrote:
Alternative suggestion - make a subforum of such guides?

Anyway, I must correct the line about CO2 fire extinguishers for LiPo fires.

NO.

NO NO NO NO.

Dry powder. Dry powder (or sand, same difference) ONLY.

If a LiPo fire does happen, often best to let it burn itself out, then attack the secondary fire.


What if the secondary fire is your house ?
Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:31 am View user's profile Send private message
Boff
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CarrierII wrote:
Fair and sensible warnings


Hur-dur! I should probably read submissions before I factor them in. Or not edit things on a lack of sleep. I have fixed it with the correct information now, thanks. Very Happy

Franticblue, if your house is the secondary fire there's a phone number you can call - it's got 3 digits and those aren't 1s. Very Happy

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Franticblue
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Hehe that's why I'm keeping away from these batteries for now.
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UKNerfWar
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I'm not really sure why Boff has such a fear of LiPo batteries. The majority of us have them in our laptops and mobile phones and they rarely explode.

I have been RC modelling for many, many years and mostly use LiPos. I used to fly model planes but after a couple of years and several hundred pounds, decided I wasn't very good at it. My point is I have slammed 3-4 RC planes into the ground, each carrying several LiPo packs and I have never had any problems. You are only really likely to have a bad experience with them if you abuse or mistreat them.

A quick look on YouTube will reveal that the majority of LiPo battery failures are deliberate. Caused by idiots who just want to blow stuff up and start fires. Yes there are risks to using LiPo batteries, but these risks are very low if you ensure that they are used properly.

Let's face it, if they were prone to spontaneously exploding, you wouldn't be able to buy them on the high street.

EDIT:

Spelling

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[quote="OldNoob:38837"]Remember if a mod guide has no performance test figures to back it up, look for a better one![/quote]

Last edited by UKNerfWar on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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OldNoob
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Post Reply with quote
UKNerfWar wrote:


Let's face it, if they were prone to spontaneously exploding, you wouldn't be able to but them on the high street.


Never mind butting them, it's the buying that bothers me.....

They are still better than untrustyfires.

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Big_Poppa_Nerf wrote:

Boff whats the damage? I have spent over 3 times my Nerf budget this month already. Part of me is trying to be a responsible parent/husband/house owner. The other half is just says 'Ahhhh, Screw it!'.
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UKNerfWar
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You got me.

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[quote="OldNoob:38837"]Remember if a mod guide has no performance test figures to back it up, look for a better one![/quote]
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Boff
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In my defence, most of my LiPo hate comes from being tutored by CarrierII. He hates them because he teaches 6th formers to make robots in his spare time and has seen the horrors that that combination can unleash. For my part, I think LiFes are more than safe enough, can be abused fine and will only swell under the worst of circumstances. Actually getting them to explode is really hard.

The LiFes I'm playing with at the moment provide sufficient performance for what I need and I'm happy with their cost and safety profile. I've just ordered another £30 worth of them for myself and CarrierII's Stampedes and given that our insurance doesn't cover LiPos, I'll be sticking with LiFes for a while yet. Very Happy

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CarrierII
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I don't hate LiPos, I'm just wary of holding them that close to my face.

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UKNerfWar
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Much the way I feel about Boff.

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[quote="OldNoob:38837"]Remember if a mod guide has no performance test figures to back it up, look for a better one![/quote]
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ScoutsIX-3
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Post Reply with quote
An excellent and very thorough thread! Thank you so much for so helpful a guide. I've been trying to understand batteries for like a year now without success.



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