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Help! My barricade is sh**

 
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Help! My barricade is sh**
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Mr.Crane
Regular Member


Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 177
Fav. Blaster: Apollo
Location: Warrington



Post Help! My barricade is sh**  Reply with quote
So it's 3am and I'm going the bed defeated

I've just rewired a barricade and it's pretty much useless... I have no idea why  Mad

Worker flywheels and a 2s lipo, it's shooting really badly - probably 70fps and the darts are so all over the place that it wouldnt even be worth shooting at someone

If anyone could help me it would be much appreciated, I'm a bit lost and don't really know how to fix the problem

Cheers
Crane

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Foamy bawls
Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:25 am View user's profile Send private message
SSGT
Nerf Addict


Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 1287
Fav. Blaster: 'Rave-N' CS-18, Elite Alpha Trooper (EAT) CS-12
Location: Durham



Post Reply with quote
Motors? The standard Barricade motors really need a 3S to perform well and, even then, don't produce much in the way of torque (literally half as much at stall on 3S as Rhinos on 3S) so they will slow down more significantly under a given load than other motors, and especially under the increased load from aftermarket/higher crush flywheels/cages. On 2S, the contact between the dart and flywheels will almost certainly fall into static friction meaning the velocity/precision/consistency of your shots will depend on the speed of the motors, and whether or not/how long you wait for the flywheels to regain speed between shots, rather than purely the geometry/material of the flywheels. This will also make any mismatch in flywheel moment of inertia/motor speed more significant.

In addition to the above, check alignment of the flywheels (concave profile centred to barrel as well as relative to each other) as well as making sure they are running true. Also worth checking both motors/flywheels are spinning, appear to spin about the same speed and spin freely aswell as checking for any poor solder joints that may add resistance. Does it sound fairly smooth or does it sound like it's running rough?

I'd also consider swapping in carbon brushes if you want to use Barricade (or other stock FA130) motors for any significant period of time - the stamped copper brushes won't last too long at the increased voltage/current. You can also run them till they die and then upgrade to Rhinos further down the line.

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Last edited by SSGT on Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:56 am; edited 3 times in total
Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:51 am View user's profile Send private message
Shady-daze
Regular Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2013
Posts: 132
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Location: Aberystwyth/ Portsmouth



Post Reply with quote
Sounds like you've only got one motor running meaning either the top or bottom flywheel isn't spinning that would account for the power loss and the sporadic accuracy.
Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:55 am View user's profile Send private message
OldNoob
Foam Data Collector


Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 4886
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Location: In the Boonies



Post Reply with quote
That's only one motor working, the barricade motors with stock wheels shoot 90fps on 2s.

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Big_Poppa_Nerf wrote:

Boff whats the damage? I have spent over 3 times my Nerf budget this month already. Part of me is trying to be a responsible parent/husband/house owner. The other half is just says 'Ahhhh, Screw it!'.
Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:39 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
chris_ngale
Junior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2016
Posts: 32
Location: Cambridge/Durham



Post Reply with quote
OldNoob wrote:
That's only one motor working, the barricade motors with stock wheels shoot 90fps on 2s.


Is that stock toothed Barricade wheels and no cage adjustments? I've heard conflicting opinions on whether the flywheels need replacing or not to fire Elites nicely, I don't know if it's just an assumption or if it's tried and tested. My soc is getting rid of its electric blasters as not matching our widegame pick-up-and-play-then-throw-it-in-a-bag-and-forget-about-it needs soon so I was thinking of picking one up.
Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:48 pm View user's profile Send private message
OldNoob
Foam Data Collector


Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 4886
Fav. Blaster: Xtreme 180 Rapidstrike
Location: In the Boonies



Post Reply with quote
Go and watch my super barricade video. It's all in there.

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Big_Poppa_Nerf wrote:

Boff whats the damage? I have spent over 3 times my Nerf budget this month already. Part of me is trying to be a responsible parent/husband/house owner. The other half is just says 'Ahhhh, Screw it!'.
Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:54 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SSGT
Nerf Addict


Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 1287
Fav. Blaster: 'Rave-N' CS-18, Elite Alpha Trooper (EAT) CS-12
Location: Durham



Post Reply with quote
chris_ngale wrote:
Is that stock toothed Barricade wheels and no cage adjustments? I've heard conflicting opinions on whether the flywheels need replacing or not to fire Elites nicely, I don't know if it's just an assumption or if it's tried and tested.


That'll be with Stryfe/Stockade flywheels (Rayven and RS flywheels will also work but Rayven wheels have a slightly larger bore and RS flywheels are often out of true) and an otherwise standard cage. The standard Barricade flywheels are slightly smaller diameter (although I can't find precise measurements it is demonstrated in OldNoob's video here) and so don't apply as much radial force to the dart which in turn reduces the max dynamic/kinetic friction that can be generated between the two. On 2S it may not make a massive difference (since you won't be reaching speeds high enough to achieve peak velocity with the standard flywheels anyway) but on 3S the difference should be more significant. The lack of data for standard Barricade flywheels likely comes from the lack of objective testing performed when the Barricade first came out and was more popular. It'd be interesting to see just how much worse they perform than standard flywheels though. You don't need to reduce the flywheel gap by much to significantly increase the muzzle velocity (as long as the motors can maintain the speed required at the increased load, going from standard flywheels to Workers can take you from around 110-120fps to 130-140fps).

Tying this back into the OP, Worker flywheels (as well as most other aftermarket flywheels) are slightly larger in diameter than standard flywheels (about the same diameter at the very centre of their concave profile but that increases moving outwards and the concave profile itself likely helps a lot as it provides a greater contact area and should prevent the dart from flattening out as much) and so can generate more friction. This also increases the load on the motors, however, which will in turn reduce the motor speed - with very low end motors it's quite possible that you'll see a performance decrease vs standard flywheels whilst running the motors at the same voltage (it has been noted that even high performance 130s, such as Rhinos, can struggle to cope with very high crush flywheels/cages). If both motors are spinning up to full speed, the flywheels are correctly positioned/they aren't rubbing/running out of true and performance is still subpar then this likely the cause - i.e. Barricade motors on 2S may simply not have the oomph to maintain the required speed under the increased load. I've never seen Barricade motors on 2S tested with Worker flywheels, so I can't say for sure if that is the main issue, but I do know that they do produce almost as little as half the stall torque of Rhinos at a given voltage.

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Trust me, I'm an engineer! Very Happy

Antonius wrote:
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Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:25 pm View user's profile Send private message
Mr.Crane
Regular Member


Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 177
Fav. Blaster: Apollo
Location: Warrington



Post Reply with quote
Both the motors are working so thats not the issue!

I've not got a 3S on hand so I'll have to go borrow one sometime during the week - I didn't know it would make such a difference on 2S

Once I've got the FPS sorted I'll have a look at the accuracy. It could just be that one motor is stalling?

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Foamy bawls
Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:02 pm View user's profile Send private message
OldNoob
Foam Data Collector


Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 4886
Fav. Blaster: Xtreme 180 Rapidstrike
Location: In the Boonies



Post Reply with quote
I would run it on Stryfe wheels, then you can eliminate wheels as the source of the problem.
Check the wheels are not catching the cage ramps as well. You need to trim them for stryfe wheels, so workers will certainly need a cage trim.

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Big_Poppa_Nerf wrote:

Boff whats the damage? I have spent over 3 times my Nerf budget this month already. Part of me is trying to be a responsible parent/husband/house owner. The other half is just says 'Ahhhh, Screw it!'.
Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:04 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mr.Crane
Regular Member


Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 177
Fav. Blaster: Apollo
Location: Warrington



Post Reply with quote
I had to do a bit of trimming to get the worker ones in - from what I can tell theres plenty of clearance all the way around

I'll have a rummage to see if I've got any stryfe wheels

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Foamy bawls
Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:06 pm View user's profile Send private message
SSGT
Nerf Addict


Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 1287
Fav. Blaster: 'Rave-N' CS-18, Elite Alpha Trooper (EAT) CS-12
Location: Durham



Post Reply with quote
Mr.Crane wrote:
I've not got a 3S on hand so I'll have to go borrow one sometime during the week - I didn't know it would make such a difference on 2S

Once I've got the FPS sorted I'll have a look at the accuracy. It could just be that one motor is stalling?


Voltage directly affects motor speed. Above a certain speed the velocity will be purely dependant on the flywheels and the flywheel gap and should remain relatively consistent. Below that speed velocity will be determined by the speed of the flywheels as the dart leaves them which can very quite a bit depending on, among other things, RoF. The lower the speed the lower the velocity. It shouldn't make darts fly wildly in all directions too much more than normal but it will change where consecutive shots land relative to each other. That said, below this "critical speed" things like mismatched flywheel moment of inertia or motor speed should become more significant and these things could affect how a dart flys.

It's very unlikely that one motor will stall whilst the other doesn't unless there's something seriously wrong with that motor/it's connections. Again, I'd check the alignment of the wheels to each other and to the barrel. Another possible problem is that, because the Barricade relies on a rotating cylinder to feed darts, the dart in the cylinder may not always line up perfectly with the concave profile of the wheels. If the darts are feeding into either side of the flywheels, or being dragged through at an angle, that won't do anything to help velocity or consistency. Testing with flywheels from something like a Stryfe would also eliminate that problem.



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Trust me, I'm an engineer! Very Happy

Antonius wrote:
Compoooter bits make shiny Nerf blaster go whoosh!
Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:03 am View user's profile Send private message
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