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Rayven afterburner concept
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chris_ngale
Junior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2016
Posts: 32
Location: Cambridge/Durham



Post Rayven afterburner concept  Reply with quote
Hi there, I'm approaching the end of my first year of uni and I'm putting together a design for a Nerfy project to do after the exams to motivate me to get myself through them. I've wanted a Rayven for a while, and those things look so sexy with a Longstrike barrel - but dat dead barrel length tho.

As a preface, at my uni Assassins soc we have a 'hard' muzzle velocity limit of 35m/s (115FPS) and a 'soft' limit of 30m/s. All blasters also have to pass the 'face test' - i.e. don't build anything you're not willing to be shot in the face with! As such I'm not interested in pushing the glass ceiling here. ~25-30m/s (~80-90fps) will do me just fine, consistency is more important to me than outright performance.

My thought was to negate some of the barrel length by introducing a second set of flywheels - probably a Barricade cage with Worker wheels - at the front of the blaster, and then using the original flywheel cage effectively as an extension to the pusher mechanism, simply there to fling the darts down the initial barrel segment into the second cage, which would then launch them as normal. The intermediate barrel segment would be only slightly larger than a dart, stopping the dart from coming out of alignment between the cages. So long as the dart hit the second cage with enough force to overcome the initial dart crush, then all should work as normal - in theory.

I've had a few thoughts about how this would all be wired up - running all four motors in parallel but using a diode to drop the voltage for the two initial 'pusher' motors would seem like the obvious solution, connected to a high-discharge 2S or 3S LiPo pack. I'm unsure about whether using the stock Rayven + 'Cade motors would be suitable though, or whether I'd be better off swapping for Rhinos, or putting Rhinos in the firing set and the 'Cades in the pusher set, etc... Then there's where to stick the battery pack. Ideally I don't want to be modifying the exterior of the shell too much as the look is one of the main reasons I'm a Rayven fan, though I guess an extended battery cover wouldn't be the end of the world. Alternatively, perhaps there's space in the stock under the pusher rod?

I'd love to hear the input of more experienced Nerfers. If it turns out it's all going to fall apart and cause nothing but torment death and misery and pain, or that it's going to be hugely enormously expensive (I am a uni student after all...) I'll probably just stick Tamiyas and a 1S in it, then see if I can get my hands on the society's 'unusable' modded Stampedes, which according to the Armoury notes need 18V to cock... on AAs... †Mad

NB. Rayven net yet acquired - I'm keeping my eye out for a good price on one.

(I do apologise if this is the wrong place for this thread, it seemed the most appropriate)
Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:39 pm View user's profile Send private message
Treezy
Veteran Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Posts: 259
Fav. Blaster: Doomlands Desolator
Location: Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire



Post Reply with quote
Iím running a stock OG green Rayven with old Barricade motors (Rayven flywheels) in the original Rayven cage, powered by 3x 14500 Torchy IMRs. Itís had a rewire with some thicker wiring and the various resistors taken out, but still running the original rev trigger micro switch.

I ran a dozen shots through the chrono at BB6 last month and was getting a wide spread of velocities; lows of mid 80s and highs of 110-120. The darts used were just grabbed out of the dart pool, so there would have been a mix of Elites and Koosh darts in various conditions.

I guess what Iím trying to say is that you may be better off just going with a single set of decent motors on a pokey 3s in the Rayven, which will put out around 110fps, and then letting the barrel drag slow the darts down to your target of 80-90fps.

Thatíll save a whole load of hassle trying to fit a secondary cage and second set of motors, then wiring them up to give 2 stage launching.

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Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:28 pm View user's profile Send private message
SSGT
Nerf Addict


Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 1273
Fav. Blaster: 'Rave-N' CS-18, Elite Alpha Trooper (EAT) CS-12
Location: Durham



Post Reply with quote
Quite honestly, I think you'll be more than fine with a single stage setup. A single stage with standard flywheels will usually get you into the 110-120fps average range (the lower end of that with a Rayven-length barrel - IIRC Oldnoob's testing has shown a 3-5-ish fps dip from adding a Recon/Retal-length front barrel). With worker wheels you're looking more like 120-130fps and top end performance for a single-stage is currently around the 140fps mark with Artifact smooth flywheels (although these seem to have dropped out of existence). For comparison I had to add a length of barrel at last year's Varsity because a single stage RS with Worker wheels was deemed too powerful - even then it was probably firing more than 115fps but it somehow got through York's pain test (where their society armourer fired it at his own hand). In the end it didn't get much use as I didn't feel that comfortable using it, given it technically even exceeds Durham's rules, but it did make for a good conversation piece. Razz

Even the motors you choose won't make that much of a difference. Rayven motors, Barricade motors, Rhinos and Hellcats on 3S (and some Tamiyas on 1S) all spin more than fast enough to achieve pretty much max velocities, especially with standard flywheels. The main difference between the options is torque which dictates how fast they get up to speed and, by extension, how well they maintain top-end velocity under higher rates of fire. You can kerb the velocity by reducing the voltage but by bringing the speed of the flywheels down below "critical speed" the muzzle velocity will also be less consistent (you start relying purely on motor speed rather than the friction between the flywheels and dart which is a function of the flywheel geometry and material). If you want to limit velocity IMO you'd be better off running slightly less optimal flywheels (Blasterparts flywheels are beautifully made but their slightly smaller diameter reduces the friction that can be generated between their surface and the dart - they'd probably take you down to around 100-110fps). The downside of stock motors, like the Rayven and Barricade sets, is that they come with stamped copper brushes which tend to destroy themselves in pretty short order, especially at voltages and currents much higher than that of what they experience as stock (although it is possible to install a pair of carbon brush packs from a set of donor FC130 motors). All of the readily available aftermarket options use carbon brushes so there shouldn't be any issues there.

Things to watch out for in a Rayven specifically include the flywheel cage and flywheels, aswell as the pusher return spring. The flywheel cage itself isn't aligned correctly relative to the rest of the blaster - it sits a couple of mm too far to the right which means darts entering the flywheels from the mag occasionally interfere with the left hand side of the inner barrel and end up squibbing out of the muzzle. This isn't too hard to fix, you can either modify the cage mounts and shim the cage across or place a ramp at the top of the left hand side of the magwell to hold the top of the magazine slightly over to the right (moving the mag isn't ideal IMO but it does stop the squibbing). The flywheels themselves have a bore size which is slightly too large which means means they sometimes have a tendency to "walk" off the motor shaft in use - the only real way around this is to replace the flywheels, either with flys from something like a Stryfe/Stockade or with aftermarket units like Worker or Blasterparts wheels. The return spring just makes the whole trigger action feel awful as the actuation rod it sits around is too small to offer support and the spring ends up buckling and grinding against the shell. A common fix is to replace it with an extension spring although you can also use a sleeve of tube (brass is probably a decent option as it comes in loads of sizes) around the actuation rod to act a guide for the standard spring.

So yeah, I'd probably go for a single-stage of something like Rhinos with Blasterparts flywheels running on a 3S pack. If you want to run it with a Longstrike barrel most of the time you probably could use Stryfe/Stockade flywheels to keep the velocity a little higher - you may be able to get away with Worker flywheels but, even with that much barrel, I think you probably will still be pushing or exceeding that 35m/s limit (there'd be no harm in starting with Rayven flywheels to give you an idea of the velocity they'd give you with a LSK barrel, and then moving up/down/sideways from there depending on how far/close you are to the limit). If you fix the Rayven's known-issues then it should perform pretty well but still within Durham limits. I'd avoid Tamiyas purely because (depending on the model you get) they either don't produce as much torque or they demand significantly more current (often a combination of both) than other (often less expensive) options. That's just an issue with running lower voltage motors - if you want the same sort of power coming out at a lower voltage you also need more current going in. It should be possible to fit a small 3S pack into the standard battery with a bit of trimming. If not, and you want to avoid adding a battery tray extension, you can extend part of the battery tray approximately 4-5mm into the magwell without it interfering with loading a magazine - just make sure to keep the vertical supports intact as they fit into grooves in the mag and help keep it relatively central. You can fit a pack in the stock if you remove a lot of plastic but I wouldn't recommend leaving a LiPo inside a blaster permanently.

If you did want to try out a multi-stage/after burner setup in the future (either for games outside of Durham or just as a fun project) this thread is probably worth a read.

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Antonius wrote:
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Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:45 pm View user's profile Send private message
chris_ngale
Junior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2016
Posts: 32
Location: Cambridge/Durham



Post Reply with quote
Ta for the replies, looks like it'd be more sensible not to over-complicate matters Smile

Of course, I do have dreams of mounting a Rampage or Stormtrooper blaster to the top of the Rayven locked into slam-fire mode, then attaching an Alpha Trooper barrel + pump grip to the front end and using it to prime the top gun, thus making a dual-barrel combined springer/flywheeler... but I feel I should probably be keeping on garnering experience before that stage Razz The thought of aligning the pump to keep it straight and aligned on both shell halves strikes fear into my heart currently, and I'm unsure as to how I'd go about bonding the shells together such that they were secure

For now I reckon I'll stick to more basic stuff Razz
Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:50 pm View user's profile Send private message
bigal123
Game Organiser


Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 283
Fav. Blaster: Lawgiver
Location: Ayrshire



Post Reply with quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaxU3-onchE&t=323s

Think this is the one your talking about, I love it. Been thinking about doing one of these myself. I got my double rampage idea from these guys as well, love there integrations.

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Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:16 pm View user's profile Send private message
Minky
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Oct 2016
Posts: 417
Fav. Blaster: Rampage
Location: Derby



Post Reply with quote
I'd seen that design before and like it as well though I think the pump grip integration could be done better. I definitely have the on top Rampage in mind for a future tri or even quad integration but with different blasters.
Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:24 am View user's profile Send private message
chris_ngale
Junior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2016
Posts: 32
Location: Cambridge/Durham



Post Reply with quote
I guess alternatively it'd be possible to use the same Alpha Trooper pump concept, but with a Rampage strapped to the side rather than the top so that the magazine faces downwards - it'd create a very asymmetric weight distribution though, and it'd be hard to do in a way that looked nice but still let you clamshell the Rampage.

EDIT:

Using the size of Mr. Frank Cooper Esquire to compare the blasters' relative size, I noticed something interesting about the Boomco Halo rifle and the Rayven:


Unfortunately those things are hard/expensive to come across over here, it seems, so that might be confined to my dreams for the time being.

NB: I'm not sure if this is the best place for this thread still as I'm basically throwing ideas around for what I may do to see what more experienced modders think is reasonable. I am picking up a Rayven later today so there will be some substance Soon(TM). First thing that'll happen to it is I'll take the switches off the mechanical locks to replace a glued-up one in the Rapidstrike...

EDIT2:

Welp, a Rayven has happened.


£15 including mag - was non-functional when I picked it up, just a corroded contact spring in the battery tray. I did a simple temporary rewire to take the locks out so I could play with it and get a feel for it. The feel for it I have got is that everyone who has previously taken note of the off-centre flywheels and the nasty trigger pull were absolutely correct, so now it's time to work out what to do to tackle them.

Horrors lurked in the mag's battery tray though...


EDIT

Posts merged, images resized. Please avoid double (or triple!) posting and please try to keep individual images within a 640x640 square (640x480 is recommended). The forum runs a script that will resize images automatically but it has to load them fully first whenever a user loads a page and when they're at 3264x1836 that can take a fair while (especially for users with slower/mobile internet).

SSGT


Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:43 pm View user's profile Send private message
SSGT
Nerf Addict


Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 1273
Fav. Blaster: 'Rave-N' CS-18, Elite Alpha Trooper (EAT) CS-12
Location: Durham



Post Reply with quote
chris_ngale wrote:
NB: I'm not sure if this is the best place for this thread still as I'm basically throwing ideas around for what I may do to see what more experienced modders think is reasonable.


IMO if it remains mostly a concept/project/build thread then this forum should be fine. If you need to ask questions about specific things (especially if they could relate to other projects) then they'd be better placed in the Q&A forum (e.g. Hushpuppy WIP thread vs. mag-release question thread).

_________________
Trust me, I'm an engineer! Very Happy

Antonius wrote:
Compoooter bits make shiny Nerf blaster go whoosh!


Last edited by SSGT on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:34 am; edited 2 times in total
Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:23 pm View user's profile Send private message
Treezy
Veteran Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Posts: 259
Fav. Blaster: Doomlands Desolator
Location: Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire



Post Reply with quote
Was that the Rayven that was on FB Marketplace in/around Swindon recently for £15? Had my eye on that one but it went as soon as it appeared.

Project is looking interesting, best of luck with it



_________________
So yeah, I like the Mega Centurion. A lot. Like, an unhealthy amount.
Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:40 pm View user's profile Send private message
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